You say you have some GSA issues. What do you think the cause is?
I know it can be poor CO2, phosphates or too long of a lighting period. I guess with your dosing regime the 1ppm PO4 should not be an issue here.
What about the 11 hour lighting period? Did you try to decrease that to about 9 to address the third cause?
And third what about circulation on the spots in question? Do you think that directing some flow (and thus getting more CO2 enriched water) on the GSA affected equipment could solve the issue?
Thanks,
keymaker
keymaker
2008-11-03 08:33:28.0
I still think the main cause is low PO4-levels, and it mainly when GSA show up in my tanks.
I have the flow directed on the back glass and that is where I had quite alot of GSA-buildup so I really don't think it's CO2. I have had the same CO2 bubble-rate and lighting period since I started this tank, and I've never had so small plant mass as I have now (low CO2-demand) and the pearling is really great from the HC.
I'm very reluctant to change things I have been running stable for several years (lighting period, CO2-bubble rate).
Perhaps the lower PO4-levels is due to the smaller plant mass though. Relatively speaking the plants get alot more intense light which might drive a much faster uptake. The HC pearls every day for example, I've never seen that before.
If that is the case it might be a bit naïve to exclude CO2 after all, or any nutrient for that matter. I'm considering adding another PMDD-dosage in the middle of the week, or a second 50% wc. Not sure which one I will choose.
deffen
2008-11-10 09:44:09.0
Thx for the answer.
Looking forward to read about your decision and see how the algae issue develops as result... Is your tap water rich in PO4?
I wonder what to do to make my recently planted HC pearl. Maybe I'm not patient, it's been only 3 days since planting, I have 25-30ppm CO2 and dose 2ml of TPN+ every day with 50% water changes every other day. This means I add a total of 41.3ppm NO3, 2.17ppm PO4 and 26.6ppm every week, but I reset it every second day with the water changes.
No the tap here in Sweden most often contains barely nothing, which is both good and bad. You have to add more stuff (GH-boost, phospahtes etc), but you can tailor the water almost exactly as you want.
50% wc every other day seems an awful lot. Is that because TPN+ contains ammonium? One wierd thing I've noticed is that if I do larger wc than 50% each week the tank seems to get more unstable. I don't exactly know why that is, but perhaps the micro ecosystems get disturbed - the mineralization bacteria might get a hit every time you do a wc and they provide both minerals and a tiny amount of CO2 when breathing.
Also, I guess very strong light is needed. How much light do you have? (wattage and the measure of the base of the tank)
deffen
2008-11-10 10:24:19.0
I can see now that you have more than enough light. 300 PAR or 180 PUR. That's alot =) I run my tank at 200 PAR or about 120 PUR and my HC pearl every day.
deffen
2008-11-10 10:38:41.0
One thing you might want to look into is the possibility of ammonium or NO3 inhibiting the plants.
Several folks in Sweden/around the world, especially those with low KH, have seen that greater NO3-levels than 10 ppm will inhibit Ca(!) with less pearling, less growth and new distorted growth on some plants.
The reason seems to be same as for terrestrial plants, for example "Bitter pit" in apples.
deffen
2008-11-10 12:33:23.0
The idea to do frequent water changes comes from guys like George Farmer and many others in the UK with nano tanks. Almost all of the flourishing and algae-free nano tanks apply this regime. Fact is, that I took the success of this practice for granted without looking into the details.
TPN+ does not actually contain ammonium (see this link for TPN+ contents: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm). I plan to gradually slow things down to 50% wc / week later on as the tank matures.
Interesting stuff you suggest with the NO3 Ca inhibition. Tom Barr does not mention anything like this in his EI description.
Plus my KH is relatively high (10). I did not have any problems growing HM, but that's a different plant. Anyway, I'll look into it and see. Thanks for the suggestion!!!
p.s.: jag ska besöka mina vänner i Stockholm i December, så jag kan testa vattnet mig själv. :) Jag vill också besöka en akvarieaffär i Stockholm, jag vet att du inte bor där, men kan du rekommendera en affär?
keymaker
2008-11-10 13:01:36.0
The site you linked to actually says that TPN+ is ammonium based: "Please remember that Tropica's TPN+ uses an ammonium compound for some of the Nitrogen content".
Tom Barr's recommentations is quite nifty in that he always suggest that you test for yourself. It was only because of Estimative Index and it's guranateed levels we could come to the conclusion that NO3 actually could inhibit Ca - or at least trig what looks like Ca-deficiencies. Mainly with A. reineckii, L. glandulosa, R. rotundifolia, R. wallichii, L. arcuata, H. rosanervig. As you say you have quite high KH and GH and might not see that effect at all.
I didn't reflect over the fact that it was a nano-tank. As you say nanos requires quite different wc-regimes than larger tanks.
When my own tank fail to pearl it's nowadays mostly because of limited filter throughput and too much organic buildup beneath my foreground plants, or deep inside plant groups and inside the filter. Everything that requires oxygen to break down will steal alot of oxygen.
deffen
2008-11-10 14:31:15.0
Sorry, you are absolutely right about the ammonium compound in the TPN+. James uses potassium nitrate instead of it, that's what confused me.
This also explains why I measured increased ammonia levels in the tank after the dosing (I did not know that by the time and I thought it's because of filter maturity issues). Thanks for the enlightening.
I was wondering if the higher K values in the DIY TPN+ would cause any trouble though. Any ideas on that? What is your opinion on this whole DIY TPN+ idea?
I am planning to make my own solution for my 260l tank. I can not go for the dry fertilizers as I'll have to automate the whole dosing and it's easier to do that with a liquid doser.
Thanks,
keymaker
2008-11-10 14:49:27.0
High K-levels was investigated by Kekon over at AquaticPlantCentral a couple of years ago when he hunted the cause of curly new leaves. Many said that raised K-levels could be the cause, but after many experiments he came to the conclusion it was the NO3.
I had had the same problems as him and immediately tried to lower my NO3-levels, and low and behold it worked! Since then a couple of more aquarists here in Sweden have seen the same thing. Everyone had very soft water.
I think it's a good idea to mimic TPN+. The first PMDD-receipe I made was to mimic the old TMG (TPN without a +).
The main problem I've seen is to get micro-nutrients that has a good chelate - especially for tanks with hard water. Tropicas fertilizers have always been using HEDDTA and that seems to be the best alternative for harder water. Overall it seems more stable in aquatic environments. The agrigultral micros like CSM+B and NutriSi with only EDTA/DTPA seems too unstable for aquariums. There are several persons having a real hard time battling micro-deficiencies and massive ironoxide buildup in their filters when they use more and more without the plants getting any.
deffen
2008-11-10 16:24:31.0
James recommends using the Aqua Essentials Trace Elements Mix in the DIY TPN+ recipe. However neither he nor the Aqua Essentials can not tell me if the trace elements mix has HEDDTA chelates or not.
Do you know any trace mix that has HEDDTA in? What micro fertilizer do you use?
keymaker
2008-11-10 17:00:34.0
I now use "Mikro+" which is available from http://www.haack.se/pmdd/. It took Peter Haack awhile to convince me that it is HEEDTA, exactly like Tropicas fertilizers =)
Those are the only I know that use HEEDTA.
deffen
2008-11-10 17:12:03.0
Thank you for all your answers, Daniel.
I will take it from here.
I'm really grateful.
Thanks,
keymaker
2008-12-03 18:25:05.0
Just to let you know the ferts from Haack arrived last week to Hungary. Will mix them up this week... Thanks again.
Kommentarer
2008-11-02 21:59:00.0
Tjena Daniel,
You say you have some GSA issues. What do you think the cause is?
I know it can be poor CO2, phosphates or too long of a lighting period. I guess with your dosing regime the 1ppm PO4 should not be an issue here.
What about the 11 hour lighting period? Did you try to decrease that to about 9 to address the third cause?
And third what about circulation on the spots in question? Do you think that directing some flow (and thus getting more CO2 enriched water) on the GSA affected equipment could solve the issue?
Thanks,
keymaker
keymaker
2008-11-03 08:33:28.0
I still think the main cause is low PO4-levels, and it mainly when GSA show up in my tanks.
I have the flow directed on the back glass and that is where I had quite alot of GSA-buildup so I really don't think it's CO2. I have had the same CO2 bubble-rate and lighting period since I started this tank, and I've never had so small plant mass as I have now (low CO2-demand) and the pearling is really great from the HC.
I'm very reluctant to change things I have been running stable for several years (lighting period, CO2-bubble rate).
Perhaps the lower PO4-levels is due to the smaller plant mass though. Relatively speaking the plants get alot more intense light which might drive a much faster uptake. The HC pearls every day for example, I've never seen that before.
If that is the case it might be a bit naïve to exclude CO2 after all, or any nutrient for that matter. I'm considering adding another PMDD-dosage in the middle of the week, or a second 50% wc. Not sure which one I will choose.
deffen
2008-11-10 09:44:09.0
Thx for the answer.
Looking forward to read about your decision and see how the algae issue develops as result... Is your tap water rich in PO4?
I wonder what to do to make my recently planted HC pearl. Maybe I'm not patient, it's been only 3 days since planting, I have 25-30ppm CO2 and dose 2ml of TPN+ every day with 50% water changes every other day. This means I add a total of 41.3ppm NO3, 2.17ppm PO4 and 26.6ppm every week, but I reset it every second day with the water changes.
keymaker http://aquascapingblog.blogspot.com
2008-11-10 10:04:49.0
No the tap here in Sweden most often contains barely nothing, which is both good and bad. You have to add more stuff (GH-boost, phospahtes etc), but you can tailor the water almost exactly as you want.
50% wc every other day seems an awful lot. Is that because TPN+ contains ammonium? One wierd thing I've noticed is that if I do larger wc than 50% each week the tank seems to get more unstable. I don't exactly know why that is, but perhaps the micro ecosystems get disturbed - the mineralization bacteria might get a hit every time you do a wc and they provide both minerals and a tiny amount of CO2 when breathing.
Also, I guess very strong light is needed. How much light do you have? (wattage and the measure of the base of the tank)
deffen
2008-11-10 10:24:19.0
I can see now that you have more than enough light. 300 PAR or 180 PUR. That's alot =) I run my tank at 200 PAR or about 120 PUR and my HC pearl every day.
deffen
2008-11-10 10:38:41.0
One thing you might want to look into is the possibility of ammonium or NO3 inhibiting the plants.
Several folks in Sweden/around the world, especially those with low KH, have seen that greater NO3-levels than 10 ppm will inhibit Ca(!) with less pearling, less growth and new distorted growth on some plants.
The reason seems to be same as for terrestrial plants, for example "Bitter pit" in apples.
deffen
2008-11-10 12:33:23.0
The idea to do frequent water changes comes from guys like George Farmer and many others in the UK with nano tanks. Almost all of the flourishing and algae-free nano tanks apply this regime. Fact is, that I took the success of this practice for granted without looking into the details.
TPN+ does not actually contain ammonium (see this link for TPN+ contents: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm). I plan to gradually slow things down to 50% wc / week later on as the tank matures.
Interesting stuff you suggest with the NO3 Ca inhibition. Tom Barr does not mention anything like this in his EI description.
Plus my KH is relatively high (10). I did not have any problems growing HM, but that's a different plant. Anyway, I'll look into it and see. Thanks for the suggestion!!!
p.s.: jag ska besöka mina vänner i Stockholm i December, så jag kan testa vattnet mig själv. :) Jag vill också besöka en akvarieaffär i Stockholm, jag vet att du inte bor där, men kan du rekommendera en affär?
keymaker
2008-11-10 13:01:36.0
The site you linked to actually says that TPN+ is ammonium based: "Please remember that Tropica's TPN+ uses an ammonium compound for some of the Nitrogen content".
Tom Barr's recommentations is quite nifty in that he always suggest that you test for yourself. It was only because of Estimative Index and it's guranateed levels we could come to the conclusion that NO3 actually could inhibit Ca - or at least trig what looks like Ca-deficiencies. Mainly with A. reineckii, L. glandulosa, R. rotundifolia, R. wallichii, L. arcuata, H. rosanervig. As you say you have quite high KH and GH and might not see that effect at all.
I didn't reflect over the fact that it was a nano-tank. As you say nanos requires quite different wc-regimes than larger tanks.
When my own tank fail to pearl it's nowadays mostly because of limited filter throughput and too much organic buildup beneath my foreground plants, or deep inside plant groups and inside the filter. Everything that requires oxygen to break down will steal alot of oxygen.
deffen
2008-11-10 14:31:15.0
Sorry, you are absolutely right about the ammonium compound in the TPN+. James uses potassium nitrate instead of it, that's what confused me.
This also explains why I measured increased ammonia levels in the tank after the dosing (I did not know that by the time and I thought it's because of filter maturity issues). Thanks for the enlightening.
I was wondering if the higher K values in the DIY TPN+ would cause any trouble though. Any ideas on that? What is your opinion on this whole DIY TPN+ idea?
I am planning to make my own solution for my 260l tank. I can not go for the dry fertilizers as I'll have to automate the whole dosing and it's easier to do that with a liquid doser.
Thanks,
keymaker
2008-11-10 14:49:27.0
High K-levels was investigated by Kekon over at AquaticPlantCentral a couple of years ago when he hunted the cause of curly new leaves. Many said that raised K-levels could be the cause, but after many experiments he came to the conclusion it was the NO3.
I had had the same problems as him and immediately tried to lower my NO3-levels, and low and behold it worked! Since then a couple of more aquarists here in Sweden have seen the same thing. Everyone had very soft water.
I think it's a good idea to mimic TPN+. The first PMDD-receipe I made was to mimic the old TMG (TPN without a +).
The main problem I've seen is to get micro-nutrients that has a good chelate - especially for tanks with hard water. Tropicas fertilizers have always been using HEDDTA and that seems to be the best alternative for harder water. Overall it seems more stable in aquatic environments. The agrigultral micros like CSM+B and NutriSi with only EDTA/DTPA seems too unstable for aquariums. There are several persons having a real hard time battling micro-deficiencies and massive ironoxide buildup in their filters when they use more and more without the plants getting any.
deffen
2008-11-10 16:24:31.0
James recommends using the Aqua Essentials Trace Elements Mix in the DIY TPN+ recipe. However neither he nor the Aqua Essentials can not tell me if the trace elements mix has HEDDTA chelates or not.
Do you know any trace mix that has HEDDTA in? What micro fertilizer do you use?
keymaker
2008-11-10 17:00:34.0
I now use "Mikro+" which is available from http://www.haack.se/pmdd/. It took Peter Haack awhile to convince me that it is HEEDTA, exactly like Tropicas fertilizers =)
Those are the only I know that use HEEDTA.
deffen
2008-11-10 17:12:03.0
Thank you for all your answers, Daniel.
I will take it from here.
I'm really grateful.
Thanks,
keymaker
2008-12-03 18:25:05.0
Just to let you know the ferts from Haack arrived last week to Hungary. Will mix them up this week... Thanks again.
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